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    December 13

    zz 中国外贸

    "如果全球的需求已经崩溃,人民币贬值也不会有什么大的作用"

    韩元已经贬值了1/3,出口却减少了18.3%. 难道现在人民币应该升值么?反正中国出口的东西弹性比较小。

     

     

     

    Chinese trade

    Falling apart

    Dec 11th 2008
    From Economist.com

    China produces dreadful trade figures, in a blow to the world economy


    Shutterstock

    Correction to this article

    JUST how worrying are the figures, published on Wednesday December 10th, showing that China’s exports and imports plunged in November? Exports fell by 2.2% last month from a year ago; imports plummeted by an astonishing 17.9%. One analyst sums up the news as “a shock figure”.

    The gloom is spread all over the place. Exports dropped across all big traded goods and all parts of the world. Exports to America fell by 6.1%; those to the ASEAN countries, which had grown by 21.5% in October, fell by 2.4%. The faster decline in imports meant that China’s monthly trade surplus reached a record $40.1 billion. Exports last fell in 2001.

    Such numbers would be nasty enough for any big economy, but they are particularly shocking because China’s racing trade has been an engine of world trade, and thus global growth. During the 1990s China’s exports grew at an annual average of 12.9%; from 2000 to 2006 that growth nearly doubled to 21.1% each year, according to the World Bank. China's rapidly rising imports have also driven growth elsewhere. The chief economist of a Chinese bank calls the latest figures “horrifying”.

    The rapidity of the decline is as striking as its extent. Trade growth in October was similar to preceeding months; exports grew by more than 19% from a year earlier. A sudden drop in just a month has surprised even the most pessimistic economists. Some analysts point out that a global shortage of trade finance in November may have exaggerated the decline, but the Chinese juggernaut is definitely stumbling.

    The consequences for the Chinese economy, which has seen dizzying rates of growth since economic reforms began in 1978 (growth in the 1990s averaged 10.5%), could now be dire. Its growth is unusually driven by its exports, which have made it the world’s factory. According to the World Bank, 27% of world GDP in 2006 came from exports (up from 21% in 1990). The corresponding figures for China that year show it to be particularly dependent on exports: 40% of its GDP came from exports in 2006, compared with 11% for highly open America and 29% for Britain. Thus the potential for a drop in exports to drag down China’s growth is correspondingly greater.

    The World Bank’s latest growth predictions were released on Tuesday. These predict that the Chinese economy will expand by 7.5% in 2009, well under its own calculation of 9.5% growth that it reckons China needs to keep unemployment stable. But even these calculations may prove to be overly optimistic. The Bank’s prediction rests in part on the expectation that China’s exports will rise by 4.2% next year. In fact many analysts expect the slump in trade to continue and possibly worsen; UBS, a Swiss bank, predicts that Chinese exports will not grow at all in 2009.

    Chinese workers, who are already restive, may find the new year increasingly difficult. Labour disputes almost doubled in the first ten months of 2008 and sacked workers from closed toy factories rioted. If export growth ceases entirely, and jobs are threatened, social responses could be more severe. An estimated 130m people have moved from the countryside to the cities, many for jobs in factories that make goods for export. Zhang Ping, the country’s top planner, has given warning of the risk of social instability arising from massive unemployment.

    The latest trade figures also worsen the already gloomy outlook for the rest of the world. Some were counting on China to prop up the global economy, as much of the rich world falls into recession. Merrill Lynch had expected China to contribute 60% of global growth in 2009. But the dramatic fall in imports suggest that the Chinese can not be relied on to be the consumer of last resort.

    Analysts at Goldman Sachs expect several more months of shrinking exports. Speculation that China will devalue its currency is rife, but this would have little effect if world demand is simply collapsing. The experience of South Korea is instructive: its currency has fallen by a third against the dollar this year, but this did not prevent its exports from dropping by 18.3% in November, compared with a year ago. Unfortunately, this may not be enough to deter the Chinese government from trying to push down the yuan, which has appreciated significantly on a trade-weighted basis.

    Fiscal stimulus is much more important; efforts to boost domestic demand would help both China and the world. Most analysts expect announcements about new measures on top of the $586 billion package already announced. Interest rates and taxes are likely to be cut further.

    Comments (10)

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    嗯 我确实觉的整个中国这么大都出口导向是一种不健康的状态。抛开这个问题,单就目前的出口来讲,我的看法如下:
    1. 出口导向经济也要看进口商品的结构和出口商品的结构。之后才能断定升值到底好不好。比如一个极端的例子是石油出口国。它本币的升值对于其出口影响并不大,对进口影响却比较大。
    2. 出口工厂的利润不能仅靠扭曲外汇价格还保障,也不能仅靠低工资来保障。出口工厂的利润不是现在才没有的,新劳动法和农民收提高后,一批工厂利润已经不大。另一方面,还是相当一批工厂是有利润的,否则外贸到现在不会只降了2.2%。“会哭的孩子有奶吃”,但也不能只关注那些倒闭的企业。
    3. 所谓的政治上的考虑,就是指低端工人失业而引起的民怨,但欧美的政治操作使得经济现象变成了中国威胁的借口罢了。全球化后,这种低端产业转移是不可避免的。
    4. 东南亚与中国的竞争不仅在于成本,还在于稳定,和巨大的国内市场。之所以认为还中国世界工厂还会持续,是因为东南亚大多政治不稳定。中国法律虽然也是问题很多,但是至少有一定的规则,东南亚等地区还没有相对好一点的投资环境。这一点可以看相关报道,和访谈。
    Dec. 15
    Yifeiwrote:
    哈哈 其实我就是随便说一句 抛砖成功
    Dec. 15
    Yunwrote:
    "出口的多一定好么?"当然不是。但是现有情况是中国是一个出口贸易国。如果你将整个的贸易格局逆转,由出口导向型经济变成内销型经济当然也是可以的。但是这个跟我们讨论的现有状况的本币问题无关。若改变经济格局之后的本币政策当然要变化,但现有讨论应该限定于仅讨论货币政策,即现有状况的货币政策。
    “失业率不能仅靠不可持续的投资来维持”以及“要解决的不仅仅是眼前的问题”:失业率从来不是靠投资维持的,我也没有说过这样的论调。我的结论仅仅是工厂有利润的情况下能保证工作机会,这个和继续投资没有关系,是着眼于现有工作机会。当然这个出发点就是解决眼前的问题,本币贬值至少能解决眼前问题,如果不仅仅要解决眼前的问题,货币政策做不到。
    “出口企业有钱赚的同时,也要考虑进口企业和其它行业”我之前已经说了,出口大于进口的时候,就是赚的钱多于亏的钱,这就已经考虑了进口行业。
    “对于外国的便宜货倾销的批评,我认为更多的是政治上的考虑”这个需要数据说话,你要看看自从中国商品进入欧美市场后其本土产品的销量及利润变化才能做此断言,而就我看到的是,经济上中国商品对欧美国家本土基本制造业的冲击是相当严重的。退一步说,经济基础决定上层建筑,如果没有实实在在的经济上的冲击,又怎么会有政治上的考虑呢?
    “中国货依然很便宜”现在已经不是这么乐观的状况了。现有的广东工厂倒闭潮中有很多实际是迁移到了劳动力更便宜的东南亚,而东南亚的低成本制造业正是依托了其本国货币的贬值。举个身边的例子,我在美国已经在看到越来越多的"Made in Malaysia"了。
    “我预期在未来的几年内,也不可能有任何其它国家能取代中国作为世界工场的地位”这个预期我恐怕要说是无凭无据了,现在已经有小规模迁移了,又何以预期今后不会全部迁移走呢?
    “如果不能考虑外需,那么自然要考虑内需的替代了”呵呵,换个方向想,如果能拯救出口,为什么一定要将其抹杀之后转向内需呢?这个dilemma不是那么容易辩论的东西。
    至于贬值是否稳定人心,当然没有直接联系,但是贬值之后有利润了工厂为什么要倒闭?这个逻辑上是很明显的联系。如果硬要看证据,现有东南亚与中国竞争的制造业大概能算个证据吧。
    Dec. 15
    to 刀客:
    我不认为贬值就能稳定人心。同样也没有证据证明贬值之后那些工厂就不会倒闭。
    韩国单从出口方面,应该是可以和中国相比的。当然规模差了很多。这点属于个人看法。
    Dec. 14
    总体来讲,我不同意云哥的讲法。具体地说,就是贸易及货币政策都不能只从出口者的利益出发。
    1. 出口的多一定好么?我想这个问题结果并不是那么确定。如果一个苹果,中国生产成本是10元,出口卖8元。在这种情况下出口多是好还是不好呢?现在觉的劳动力便宜的一个原因是因为农民收入过低,农民工没有其它选择,另一个原因是环境等其它成本没有算进去。当然出口还是有好处的,我的看法只是说并不全是好处而已。
    2.失业率不能仅靠不可持续的投资来维持。只有有效的投资以及就业的增长才是可以持续的。中国要解决的不仅仅是眼前的问题。
    3. 出口企业有钱赚的同时,也要考虑进口企业和其它行业。
    4. 对于外国的便宜货倾销的批评,我认为更多的是政治上的考虑,而非经济上的考虑。中国货依然很便宜,目前的升值水平没有改变这一点。我预期在未来的几年内,也不可能有任何其它国家能取代中国作为世界工场的地位。但还是那句话,低附加值的产品没有发展前景。
    5. 如果不能考虑外需,那么自然要考虑内需的替代了。
    Dec. 14
    Yunwrote:
    首先:“贬值使得韩国在国际贸易中需要用更多的商品去换别多的原来同样数量的商量”中国是贸易顺差国,意味着贬值在出口上的影响比进口的影响要多,是净赚而不是净亏。
    “关于不关都不是大问题”关与不关是大问题,而且是很大的社会问题。关了,多出来的劳动力怎么办?那么多人怎么活?现在为什么政府要保8%?就是因为理论上高于8%的增长国内失业率才不会上升。
    “问题在于工厂要能赚钱,而不仅仅是运作”贬值的重要性就在于让出口的工厂有钱赚,这一点你如果做过国际贸易就应该相当清楚。
    “贬值的本币并不一定提高利润”在只讨论出口的情况下,本币贬值一定增加利润。对外贸易只有两种模式,或者出口或者进口,进口的情况下会降低利润,但是如前所述,对一个贸易顺差国来说,出口dominate进口,因此在全国宏观上一定增加利润。
    "毕竟基本需求产品,无论价格是多少钱,人们都还是需要的"但是谁都会去买便宜的,你的便宜你的竞争力就高,这个道理很简单。这也是很多发达国家指责中国的原因,因为中国的制造业将他们本国的制造业完全挤出局了。蛋糕就那么大摆在那里,你不去抢自然有人抢。
    国内基础建设确实要加强,但是这个跟本币贬值关系不大,属于基本独立的另一方面的问题。
    Dec. 14
    我是赞成贬值的,毕竟目前稳定人心同样很重要。
    另外,韩国即使贬值无效,并不等同中国贬值也无效。
    当然内需也是非常关键的。
    刀客
    Dec. 14
    谢谢云哥和ifmore的留言
    1. 出口确实是美元计算的。我刚才又查了一下相关的新闻才确认这一点。莫大的意思是出口额下降并不意味着韩国国内企业收获的韩元总数的减少,这一点我认同。但是问题在于,一方面没办法证明如果韩元不贬值,出口会下降更多。另一方面,韩元的贬值使得韩国在国际贸易中需要用更多的商品去换别多的原来同样数量的商量(如果以韩元计的出口商品的价格不变的话)。
    就工厂而言,我觉的关于不关都不是大问题。问题在于工厂要能赚钱,而不仅仅是运作。如果不能赚钱,还不如关了呢。这个问题可以展开讨论。比如中国的广东所面临的问题。
    2. a. 贬值的本币并不一定提高利润。这一点要看企业所从事的行业等。比如说本币的升值可能会有利于航空业(因为进口石油,以及用外币付贷款利息),本币的贬值会有利于原材料不需要进口的企业。所以不好简单的说。
    b. 关于全球需求,我也觉的不好说崩溃。毕竟无论任何时候基本需求还是有的。
    c. 中国本币贬值对于刺激出口的效果,我觉的效果不大。毕竟基本需求产品,无论价格是多少钱,人们都还是需要的。而这些基本产品的需求也不会随着价格的下降而上升多少。目前我觉的国内企业还是放眼国内市场吧,国外市场确实不怎么好弄。
    3. 好像有一种论调认为中国国内的政府投资不会有很好的效果,我看法并不相同。只要看看中国国内的春运情况,就知道还是有无数地方的基础设施需要加强的。现在趁国际上大宗商品便宜了,正好开工。只是如果能更依靠民企,而不仅是政府和国企,就会更好一点。
    Dec. 14
    Yunwrote:
    本币贬值对于出口的刺激是肯定的,贬值的本币提高出口利润,利润导向作用下当然会刺激出口。
    至于世界经济大环境的问题,和贬值升值是irrelavent或者说independent的另一个问题,不能混为一谈。
    换句话说,无论大环境好还是不好,贬值升值造成的效果都一样。
    另一方面,所谓的全球需求崩溃的论调实在是值得商榷。如果想要摆出全球需求崩溃的论调,我想最好区分一下,那些需求崩溃了,而哪些又没有
    全球人口基数在那里放着,不论经济发展好坏如何,其基本需求都是一定要得到满足的,真正影响大的是超过基本需求以外的东西。而现在看来,中国的出口商品多数是处于这个level的,也就是说这个市场的萎缩应该远没有整体市场萎缩那么大。举例来看就是现在高端的mall生意越来越不好做关的越来越多,但是walmart costco之流还没听说要关门的。
    所以结论是:如果现在中国进行本币贬值刺激出口,效果肯定是会有的。不过这个可能引起区域经济的一定震荡,其后续会有何种反应还值得商榷。
    Dec. 13
    Yifeiwrote:
    弱问一下 出口额不是按美元计的么
    贬值1/3 但是出口额只降了18.3% 出口的产品还是增加了 贬值还是有效果的嘛。。。别的不说 起码工厂不用关了
    Dec. 13

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